Did TX Gov. Rick Perry suggest Texas might secede? You be the judge

well, no state has a right to dissolve the union... the civil war (2nd American Revolution) settled that issue, NO state has the right to secede... and, come on, what state is going to give up its piece of the federal pie? i mean really... o... and just so ya know... i'm from texas

Actually this raises a serious issue. The United States is simply too big and diverse in it's current configuration to be sustained over time. There are big cultural differences that are not natural for a united political unit such as a nation-state. And the fault lines aren't always obvious ... I am an atheist and yet can't stand living around truly left wing people. So some kind of separation will happen in the future. We don't need to look to the tragic model of the Civil War (where horrible mistakes were made on all sides), we can look to the more modern example of Czechoslovakia. It was an artificial state for most of the 20th century that agreed to a peaceful split in the 90s, into the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic. Both sides have benefited enormously. The two sides were simply too different to be sustainable. They continue to have friendly diplomatic and trading relationships to this day, and so could a reconfigured United States. The side of America (and Texas) that yearns to embrace gay rights, affirmative action, expansive welfare state, etc., would have full reign to create the kind of country they yearn for. Those who prefer capitalism, property rights, individual rights, and tire of endless lectures from the Left would be happier as well in their own separate country. The misery created by living in the kind of multicultural "nation" we have now is similar to what those in the artificial Soviet states went through. An excellent primer on this is the work done by (the liberal!) researcher Robert Putnam. All the latest research shows that multi-ethnic communities have less civic participation, less charity, less trust in government and less personal happiness. For a primer, read his excellent book "Bowling Alone". The only the way the two or three (or more) cultures now living inside the "Untied States" can ever achieve fulfillment is via a friendly separation. Trade and extensive cultural exchanges would still take place, and we would all be better off for it. The truth is, this is going to happen eventually and the mature thing is to start laying the groundwork for an equitable split. Remember, there was once a Roman Empire --- but with its death, the world gained England, France, Italy, Germany and so much more.

Rick Perry: If at First You Don’t Secede ….

See

http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/...

Some idiot made a comment that red states produce stuff, and blue states don't? Quite the opposite actually. Where is everything actually designed, grown and made? well, mostly California, upper midwest and the northeast.

All those Federal taxes you love to hate? It all comes from blue states and goes to red, so enjoy your pork. Nine of the ten states that get the most federal dollars and pay the least... can you guess? Go on, guess. That’s right, they're red states. And eight of the ten states that receive the least and pay the most? They’re blue states. It’s not your money, it's the blue states money. What was that Real American Value you were spouting a minute ago? Self reliance?

Well this gravy train is over. Take your liberal-bashing, federal-tax-leaching, confederate-flag-waving, holier-than-thou, hypocritical attitudes and take a hike.

shwwoooosh right over your head.....

Let Texas go...the consume more of the federal budget than they contribute; they are the country's biggest users of energy; and they are a pain. Give Texas back to Mexico.

Thomas James, I know I'm getting into this discussion a little late. Your comment made me laugh. Specifically it was your remark about all the red states produce stuff and the blue states don't.

"We will then sell you everything you need because its the red states that do almost of all of the food growing and energy producing and in exchange you will sell us.....oh wait thats right you guys don't do crap...," you wrote.

Now frankly I love red states and blue states. I've lived in both over the years. And they're always way more complex and interesting than some people would have you believe.

Case in point: California. Which, as my memory serves me, went BIG for Obama and for Democrats.

When I lived in California during the 1990s, several of its counties were among the top 10 ag counties in the U.S. As I recall, the top ag county was Fresno County. I think a couple of other counties, San Joaquin among them, rounded up the Top 5. Most, if not all of the counties, were in the Central Valley. I don't know if you know much about the Central Valley, but it stretches from Bakersfield in the south to Redding in the north. It's several hundred miles long, and most of the land is dedicated to agriculture.

Things could have changed in the 15 years since I lived in California, but I doubt it.

I point this out because the facts are much more interesting than all this red-hot rhetoric surrounding this secession issue. It also gets at something else: this nation is a mixed-up, mashed-up collection of states that rely on each other. Ain't nothing gonna change that.

A final point: all this talk of secession is funny because it is not real but merely an echo chamber for politicians who want to win free media and a larger following of supporters. It's a cynical move. Don't believe me? Check out the Georgia Senate's recent vote to support a resolution similar in principle to Perry's idea. The Georgia folks add something to their document. Among the legal theories they push in that resolution is constitutional nullification, which, if you know your civil rights history well, was a high-profile theory pushed by opponents of civil rights and in the aid of the states' rights movement. I really doubt that they're serious about it. We all see how well that worked out for supporters of nullification.

Which brings me to my final point: Push comes to shove, secession ain't gonna happen. We just all have to learn how to live together, brother. Bottom line.

Agreed, but that is not very fun or very funny now is it. Certainly doesn't make for much of a lively debate.

It may not make for a lively debate. It does, however, make for a much more substantive debate where facts matter more than wit and sarcasm. I'm just saying.

Okay but do you really think there was much substantive debate to be had on Texas seceding from the Union. The choice in this instance was between no debate or lively. So we went with lively.

Not really. But it does seem to be a symptom of something deeper and that should get a more substantive debate -- this seeming political polarization in America that frankly I don't think is as pronounced among Americans as all this talk of red state-blue state would have you believe.

As an example, California went big for Democrats last election, the same as it did in 2004. Check out how Californians voted in 2004 by looking how the counties went, and you'd think California was a red state because the Central Valley and a lot of southern California went for Bush on down in 2004. Kerry mainly won the coast.

Similarly, look at Georgia. It is often put in the red state column without much discussion by the media. And yet Atlanta and other urban areas went big for Kerry in 2004 while suburban, exurban and rural areas went for Bush. Here's something else to ponder for people who want to engage in a shallow debate about red state-blue state debate: Atlanta is home to one of the largeset gay-lesbian populations in the country.
Meanwhile, northern California at one time, and may still be, a hotbed of militia activity.

This seeming divide between conservative and liberal America is manufactured at a certain level, and is much more complex than Texas is a red state and California is a blue state. It also forgets that most Americans don't think in such a binary way -- red or blue.

And while it's fun to vent, and to joust wittily, we need a few facts thrown into these debates to leaven the rhetoric. Because as I said before we're all stuck with one another and the sooner we know how to live together, the better.

Sagely put, and I agree. You will hear no argument from me concerning your last post. I think that is part of why there so much animosity over the Tea Parties. The MSM and many on this blog just dismissed what was a very American experience on Wednesday as just being some partisan, right wing wacko event. And if you want proof of that dismissive shallow examination look no further than Arthur's blog on here today. I was at a Tea Party Wednesday and it was not just honky Americans being led around by the nose, These people have very real concerns and passion. They were out there in the most American way imaginable. Were a lot of them 8 years late, yes, but they were showing they cared. That has got to count for more than little.

Reminder, folks, keep it civil or your posts will be deleted. If you keep it up, you'll be banned.

Besides Matty, nobody said anything uncivil to anybody...you reminder is unwarranted and chills the conversation.

Actually, Thomas, there were three profanity-laced comments (one of which that was aimed at you) that we had to delete. Then the user stepped up his efforts so we had to ban him.

Ok Matt I appreciate your position, but it does not change mine. And while I apologize for the criticism that there were no uncivil comments, you guys would have more legitimacy if you refrained from using the crass comments started by Anderson Cooper such a Ms. Bauer did. As for profanity laced comments directed at me, I have a thick skin, and must admit I am somewhat disappointed that I didn't get to read them. Its kind of nice to know that I got to who ever made the comments enough to make them lose their cool.

Oh so the NMI staff can post crass tea bagging comments, but watch out the rest of. Selective ideological censorship here we come.

Let us not forget that NMI staff ran Dan Foley off and even outed his anonymous profile. You guys would have lot more legitimacy complaining about us crazy right wing terrorists if you played by your own rules.

Ironically, Texas secession would be just the tonic for the rest of the states. Think of the hundreds of billions of dollars our economy would save every year on border patrol, airport control, public school subsidies, social security-medicare-veterans payments, drug interdiction, FBI, DEA offices, closing Johnson Space Center , removing all US military bases & dissolving national guard, highway & interstate maintenance, Coast Guard, hurricane and natural disaster relief...

We would save a fortune!

Truth be told, if we really want to save the union, the other 49 states need to get together and protest against Texas being part of the US. Let them take care of all that s*&$ on their own.It's their responsibility. I'm sick and tired and I'm not going to take it anymore!

I'll remember that blue states "don't do crap" next time I'm driving past farms, wind mills, solar panel fields, oil rigs, tech companies, ranches and well, everything else out here in California.

Oh good you found an singular example, unfortunately I was talking big picture, but good participation.

Big picture? Well if you're leaving all the states that went blue last election (your rule, not mine), the United States retains California on up to Oregon and Washington, the entire eastern seaboard sans South Carolina and Georgia, Florida, the entire upper Midwest, Hawai'i, Nevada and Colorado. Seems like the big picture favors the United States and not this hypothetical secession republic (assuming it is a republic and not the Kingdom of Limbaugh).

Heck, even amend your own rules to leave the U.S. just with the "traditional" blue states and America still retains the entire West Coast, Upper Midwest, Northeast and down the Mid-Atlantic as far as D.C. I'd still say that's a pretty productive nation.

I might also say that sounds like a sweet deal, but then again I realize a fractured union is good for none (see: American Civil War and its aftermath) because I'm not a reactionary man-child.

You are too cute! You took that whole thing serious didn't you!

Pretty typical, say something stupid and get buried for it then later claim "Oh hey guys, just kidding!" Seems a lot like Rick Perry, actually.

Yeah maybe so, you mean like Bill Clinton's " I did not have sexual relations with that woman....." Difference is I was joshing you and joking, I can understand how those devoid of humor might have trouble with this one......

Just to be sure you are saying that you took my Texas seceding comment serious and then made a snarky reply about what you will remember out there in Cali, and then got mad because I made snarky remarks back to you about a superficial argument over whether or not Texas should remain part of the Union.

Does that about nail it?

The key phrase is "But Texas is a very unique place, and we’re a pretty independent lot to boot.”

Texas is unique because in joining the union as the only state that was formerly it's own nation that willingly joined the union, we have the right to secede, and we also have the right to divide Texas into four states, which seems silly until you realize it would give us 8 senators from a region that currently has two.

He didn't suggest that we might secede. . . but anyone from Texas is taught during Texas history courses that it's an option we have that no other state has.

Please, please, please secede - and take all those nut bags with you!! Then - we will finally have an America even God would be proud of.

DEAL, you let us have Texas, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, North and South Dakota, Nebraska....wait how about his we take the Red States and you take the blue states from the last election. All of us right wing nut jobs will move to those states, since that is where most of us currently are anyways and we will call it even. We will then sell you everything you need because its the red states that do almost of all of the food growing and energy producing and in exchange you will sell us.....oh wait thats right you guys don't do crap...

Perhaps you are not familiar with which states were blue and which were red in the 2008 elections. Some blue states were California, Washington, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Illinois and Florida. From California we get many fruits and vegetables, it is a port through which we get many of our goods made overseas, wine, technology, and fish. From Washington we get lumber, paper, apples, and other vegetation. From Penn. you get steel, from Iowa and Illinois you get your corn (which is used to feed the animals on the farms in the "red" states) and your wheat. And, lastly, from Florida you get your citrus fruits. So, if you really think you can do without all of those things in your daily life than, by all means, leave the Union. Its people like you, Thomas_James, are who make a true mockery of not only our political system, but our education system as well. It is people like you, who lack common sense and speak before you think, that are dragging this nation down. Maybe if you put more research into whom you vote for (because, obviously research is not your strong point) our country would elect smart, capable, individuals for office and you would have nothing to complain about.

Gah, it was sarcastic, and not realistic. Go back to your law school class and pay attention to your professor. I know what they produce in the differing states of the Union. Common sense is not the attribute I am missing. And as for strong points, nothing in my sarcastic post indicates it was serious, so lets not list perceptive as one of yours.

As for capable individuals being elected into office neither party has done that in the last 9 years so lets not rush to judgment just yet. Our economy is still in the dump, are troops are still at war, and our president still thinks he can wiretap citizens and the refuse to tell us what he is up to because of executive privilege. On top of that the govt. is still handing out billions to corrupt wall street execs.

So lets be clear my sweet girl with the blue eyes, no person I have voted for has been elected in the last three elections, and just to be crystal about the early post it was sarcasm.

Whats better will even give you all of the illegal aliens just to sweeten the deal.....

This sort of talk by Texas Governor Perry is actually quite rational. The 17th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution took away the state governments' voice in the federal government. Without that essential check on democracy, excessive spending and taxing (and growth of scope) by Washington cannot be stopped, even with better politicians and better laws. What Governor Perry seems to acknowledge is that the problem is structural, not legislative. With the 17th Amendment, there is no other alternative than what we have now: a federal government that treats state and local governments like dependent children, and a presumed (but faulty) paternalistic relationship requiring national intervention. Return the voice of the states to the national government by repealing the 17th Amendment and we will fix the structural problem that must be addressed first. Learn more at http://www.restorefederalism.org.

I hope so - My wife and I are considering moving to Texas
I honestly hope they do secede. Obama and the democrats are seriosly ruining this country.
I used to be a democrat and I don't mind the State and local reps - but on a national level we are getting screwed.

here here, I agree and if they do it, I will apply for citizenship in the Republic of Texas!

Texas leaving the union would have a huge impact on the rest of the country. Texas ranks 15 in the world in gross national product. Texas is the largest exporter of us products. Texas refines most of the fuel for the us. These are just a few bits of info. The biggest factor would be how the rest of the world looks at us stability if one of its states were to leave. Keep in mind that Texas isnt the only state talking about leaving the union. I would have never thought it possible that the nation that I grew up in would end up in the condition it is. Sad times.